What is Evidence Based Birth™ Childbirth?
-
Kaely Harrod 0:02
Hello and welcome back to Kaely Daily. Today's question is what is Evidence Based Birth™ childbirth education, and we will be joined by yet another wonderful special guest. this is Kaely Daily, the bi weekly podcast about all things doula Tips and Tits where we answer one question about pregnancy, labor, postpartum or lactation, in order to have your journey in this parenting world be just a little bit more informed and filled with consent.
Kaely Harrod 0:40
Hello, welcome back to Kaely Daily I'm Kaely Harrod, the host and author of this beautiful podcast, and we are continuing on our childbirth education series, diving into a couple of different forms of childbirth education that I do not teach, and I'm not trained in. And so we have another special guests, which I'm so pumped about. Leslie Greene is here with us. And on top of being a childbirth educator, she holds so many different amazing skills, titles, etc, she can decide which of those she wants to share with us. She teaches the childbirth education that is from Evidence Based Birth™ company and you have heard me talk about that company if you've been around for any of my other episodes, because I love that resource. So today's question is pretty basic. What is Evidence Based Birth™ childbirth education. And I'm gonna hand it over to Leslie to kind of give us a little rundown of her background and then to answer that question for us.
Leslie Greene 1:42
Hello Kaely, thanks for having me here. I'm so glad to join you. It's a little dangerous. I think that you just like are letting me talk on my own. But that's okay. Because I can talk a long time about many, many things, but I can stay focused. So I can tell you that yes, I am an evidence based birth instructor. And I will answer your question and focus on on that. But I can tell you a little bit where I come from. I identify as a doula, I guess or birth worker. But I do work as a birth and postpartum doula. I like to think of myself as a postpartum-centric doula. I am Lamaze trained and also an Evidence Based Birth™ educator. I'm also a babywearing consultant, I am working on my lactation Specialist certification. What else a placenta encapsulator. The way I do all of these things inside of the title of doula because I feel like well, I don't feel like I do really like to be able to support families through their whole perinatal period, I have supported some families who are in the conception phase it's not like my specialty, it's something I'd like to learn more about. They're one I do want to support in the future. Younger people or also adults learning about our menstrual cycles and how they work. It's something I'm looking for myself.
Leslie Greene 3:18
So really, I do think of birth work as being a life skill that most of us in America don't currently have access to. And so bringing that to the community is really important to me. I also am Black, and I'm from well, I identify as a Southerner, even though technically I'm not from the south, but my family is from lower Alabama. So I do look at everything from a lens of that Southern of perspective, I do also do a lot of work with traditional birth workers like Indigenous Americans, and also Indigenous Mesoamerican like Mexican style, postpartum care. I do really believe that growing up and being of the United States for many, many, many generations, the people who have worked this land before we did I really identify with that work. So I'm really into a lot of traditional work. I do believe that you need to stay in bed for a month or two after you've had a baby. And I do like to help facilitate that. And I do believe in birth work has been a very spiritual experience. And as in real life, I mean, like outside of that. I am trained as a beauty technician
Kaely Harrod 4:50
right!
Leslie Greene 4:51
Almost 20 years in as being an esthetician. I specialize in doing lash extensions. So I do have a studio where I do some lashes and facials still. I am a single mom to a six year old boy, the only boy in our family so he may or may not be rotten, but
Kaely Harrod 5:12
oh man!
Leslie Greene 5:13
Yeah. And so all these give me a... I will say that when I was pregnant my partner, my son's father, the severely disabled cognitively and, and I was always the breadwinner and so I am college educated like these are like privileges I am cisgendered and heterosexual. So I have these privileges. And I've also grown up in the DC area. But a lot of available to me when I was planning my birth and having my early parenting experience, even today, as a mom of a first grader. Everything kind of didn't fit very well. The Fit was off. I wanted to have a doula, but I didn't have the financial resources to get one. I'm an auntie. I'm not young, I had a quote unquote, advanced maternal age. So I had plenty of experience. And I thought I had very realistic expectations. I did take workshops, I did have peer counselor, and I was still completely shocked and unprepared for the experiences I ended up having. And I still carry some I don't want to say trauma, I guess disappointment. But I guess maybe it's trauma since I still ride with me from my birth experience. And it shouldn't have been that way. I came into birth work. Not interested in it. But I came into it. In July, or June of 2020. I was called into the work like a lot of us are called into it. Right around George Floyd time. There were a lot of signs. I am not religious. But I did have a lot of signs that almost made me religious that said I had to come into Burke work. I learned in college in the 90s about the black maternal health crisis.
Kaely Harrod 7:12
Yep.
Leslie Greene 7:13
And in DC, what people don't know that in DC, it's just as bad as it is. And in lower Alabama, which is rural. Yeah. And it's shocking, because it's, you know, our understanding back then was that it's because of the type of mothers or the type of people these people were and how they weren't taking care of themselves, and they weren't getting the right education. And they were criminals and drug addicts and moms and all of this. And when George Floyd and Black Lives Matter came up, I learned a lot more that it's not that at all, it's because of systemic racism. And and our whole maternal health system is just outrageously inappropriate, and it's a bad fit for almost everybody that goes as far as people. Yeah, and bringing that on college educated with these privileges. And I still was victimized by it, even though I had a lot of choices. And I was really informed. And I planned everything and was very happy with my experience, but walked away with a completely unsatisfactory experience that, yeah, I still carry the trauma from so yeah, all of this is where? Yep, a childbirth educator.
Kaely Harrod 8:37
Yeah,
Leslie Greene 8:37
I'm with Evidence Based Birth™ Specifically, when I was training to be a doula. I took the first training I could find after the call, because I didn't want to chicken out, right? Because I was like, I don't want to do this, I want to do this. I was like, Okay, I'll just take a push training, and see what this is all about. And of course, it was like opening the can of worms. If you're listening to this podcast, surely you have an idea of what it's like taking the lid off the can of worms, it's like, Oh, my goodness, that's like a whole third of what you need to know about being a human being was kept in a secret a secret from the rest of us, for most of us. So I learned about Evidence Based Birth™ in training. I think we might have had the same training, maybe not. I had it with Nicole of Graceful Fusion. Thank God, she was like the first training coming up. When I signed up. I could have had a different experience. But I was really fortunate that it turned out to be her. We learned about Evidence Based Birth™ as a company, because it's a fascinating resource. Like it's really well known as a podcast and a website where you get some information. And but I wasn't qualified to be an educator with Evidence Based Birth™ at that time. At that time, the requirement was that you had Well it still is that you had to have at least one year of experience. It's a birth worker. There was an application process. And so I figured, okay, that's fine. So I want to train with Lamaze. While I was trying to get ready for meeting the qualifications for that, and then they closed the program. Early, they closed it because they wanted to restructure it to address the Black maternal health crisis.
Kaely Harrod 10:13
Yeah
Leslie Greene 10:13
It wasn't centered enough in their program. So when it reopened, I was just shy of one year. So I applied anyway and petitioned to get accepted. And technically, when the training started, I had made my one year of experience. And I was really, really incentivized to do the work to get ready for it, because they were having an in person retreat during the pandemic, of course, that had been put off for a couple of years because of the pandemic, and it was on my birthday. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna try to make a person. Because I don't take vacations, like theirs will be my motivation, that'd be my motivation. So, Evidence Based Birth™ as a childbirth class, it's actually layered. There's a very layered their whole, like, whole organization that does a lot of work and provides a lot of resources. Kaely has surely has talked a lot about what Evidence Based Birth™ offers, but founded by a researcher, a nurse who's a researcher, and she translates information, researches information and research studies and gathers the data and translate it so that consumers and also birth workers can understand it, and use it so that we can have better birthing experiences.
Leslie Greene 11:38
Because unfortunately, our system is not designed for us to have good experiences. And to give us access to that, so we can, we can control that experience. So there's a podcast, there's the website, there's the research studies, and all of this, but there's two levels of being an instructor with them. So the base level is a license to teach some small workshops that teach you about advocacy, and how to advocate for yourself, or for your clients. In the system, the way that we have it now, and the way the maternal health system is designed in the US, for profit, essentially, and and it's not evidence based, and it takes about 17 years, but between 15 and 20 years for new research to be incorporated into the medical system. And that's a whole generation.
Kaely Harrod 12:38
Right!
Leslie Greene 12:38
Yeah. So she gives us the information so that we can take it to our providers, and implement it in our own experiences. So there are two levels and I had to qualify on that level. I teach workshops to birth workers to labor and delivery nurses, and obviously to the community, on how the system works and how to navigate it. And this is awesome, because if you are taking a childbirth class, let's say like with Kaely, and you just want to take like a one or two hour workshop. That's very specific on how to advocate in the system and get access to the articles. We could do that.
Kaely Harrod 13:21
That's awesome.
Leslie Greene 13:22
Like, you don't have to come through the whole program. Yeah. So then after you qualify there, you can apply to qualify on the second level, which took me a little while to pass because I was a little bit under qualified, right. So I had to do, it took me a few tries to do the test.
Kaely Harrod 13:37
That's okay
Leslie Greene 13:40
When I got to the childbirth class, the class is way different than any other class childbirth class that I had ever seen. Because it's a hybrid program where it's mostly videos recorded by the founder that teaches you about childbirth. And actually the whole childbirth system like what I would teach in the Lamaze class is basically taught in the orientation course of the evidence base for childbirth class. Yeah, and it's a six week program.
Kaely Harrod 14:11
Like you're learning my intro in your other classes.
Leslie Greene 14:15
Exactly! Sounds like Okay, so what I'm used to teaching as a childbirth class, it's just an introduction. Like class through them. So that's why a lot of prep to get ready for it. But it's a six week class. And a lot of both the learning and the science part and like the technical parts are in the videos. And then our weekly sessions. The first session and the last session are about two hours long. And then there's weekly sessions in between that are about an hour depending on how long did it you know, we need their discussion and more like coaching sessions, so we get deeper and get deeper into what you learned there, and how you're going to apply it in real life. And I love this and the students love it too. We do a lot of like role playing like, Okay, so let's say you have a partner with you. And so okay partner, let's roleplay we just got to the hospital. And you know, your, your partner is in labor, and they've got their headphones in, and they're not talking to the nurses and you're talking to the nurses, I'm the nurse, you're, you're the partner, let's roleplay and just kind of practice. We work on you know, doing the birth plan, and work on prepping for postpartum and all of these so that it's really great to know what to ask for. But it's harder to advocate for yourself and speak up and say, I don't want that I want this instead.
Leslie Greene 15:51
Especially when you get pushback, I think that, yeah, people expect when you go into a hospital, I'm just gonna use that for an exam. I'm not trying to demonize hospitals, it's just realistically, like, 91% of us have babies in the hospital, or births are happening in hospitals. So let's just be realistic, that going into the hospital, almost everybody's very nice. You don't, there's nobody like Maleficent is not standing at the front door, saying you can't have that great people that you may feel very attached to and very supported by. And you really had a traumatic experience because they weren't listening to you. So we really practice the different ways that they need to ask for things, or maybe to speak to things and also what to do.
Leslie Greene 16:42
If you go through your whole list of things, and you still don't get what you're looking for what to do then. And also what to do afterwards, if you did have an experience you weren't planning on, and you need to do something, to follow up with it. And where those complaints would go. Most people don't know that the complaints are basically customer service complaints. So they stay inside the hospital. They're not like legal issues or anything and what you're most of the people, almost everybody who has a baby has been raised as a female in the United States. And we are really discouraged from speaking up and complaining about things. So you actually file a complaint with a hospital about an experience you had takes a lot of a lot of courage, and you don't expect it to go to the customer service department and die there. So we talked about these kinds of things, also, how to prepare for that. So the questions are actually a lot of fun. And pretty much all childbirth classes are a lot of fun, right? Because a lot of activity, like in a labor rehearsal and all that. But that's what makes it a bit different from other workshops.
Kaely Harrod 17:55
Yeah, that's, it's funny that you bring up like people being like, I think, when we think about like wanting different care than maybe what the like hospital policies are, right? It's not that people are mean, it's that you're like, sometimes kindly gaslit.
Leslie Greene 18:16
You are!
Kaely Harrod 18:17
you know, their hands are tied by the policies of the hospital in some cases, you know, and so so it's not even, I think when you when you go in talking about like policies being not evidence based, it's not the nurses that set those policies, you know, it's not even always the providers that set those policies, like we're talking about hospital administration. And so it's way higher than them even. Yeah, and it doesn't mean they don't have control over how they treat you. And you don't have agency you certainly do. But it's not coming in, like you versus the nurses, you know, it's not the scenario. Right.
Leslie Greene 18:51
Right. Right. And you come in and you're expecting to have a fight with nurses, and then you're like, Oh, she's really nice. Yeah. And, and nobody comes out satisfied from the experience. But, you know, we're all just a part of it. And that's a big part of like, we do an activity. And like our mini workshops that are for people that are not taking our full sis full class, do an activity, where we lay out like the, the power and how it's distributed in the hospital. And in a group with like, 25 people involved with a birth in a hospital, and the power is last given to the the mom. You know, sometimes the baby is above that guy has more power than the mom and the partner, and maybe even the doula.
Kaely Harrod 19:49
Yep.
Leslie Greene 19:50
And then the doctor like not even, not even all the way at the top. And the decisions are made by people who don't even know your name. So it's really an insufficient system for almost everybody except for the profiteers. And it's frustrating for everybody, and everybody's going through different experiences. And that's why we also have workshops for people who are working inside of the system in the hospital system so that they can help change policy that and have better experiences, too, because I don't know any nurses who said they got into nursing, because they want to harm people. Doctors anymore.
Kaely Harrod 20:31
Yeah. Yeah.
Leslie Greene 20:35
It's challenging and broke workers, we have a very short lifespan, as far as our careers go, because of the secondary trauma and other issues. But yeah, and so I think that nurses and doctors stay in the system, because it's a lot harder for them to just quit. Yeah, because they have so much invested, and all of that they're bringing into your birth space. So yeah, it's great to know how to work with them. And so we can all be on a team together and get you a really great experience. Because having a baby is a transformative experience. There's nothing else like I've been trying to figure out how you can have the transformation without having a baby. And I don't know, any way that you can get the benefit, they get the transformation without the birth. Yeah, and my goodness, gracious, it's enough on its own. And I do really, really, really strongly believe that people who have birthing experiences that they have, like you said, some agency and control over really, really really dictates what kind of parents they're going to be. And it's really great to have parents coming through even if things didn't go the way they wanted to feeling like they mattered, they have some decisions that they can make that the best care possible is what they received. It's so much easier for them to handle their postpartum time and make decisions as a parent. And, you know, I really do believe that the fastest way to change the world is in birth work.
Kaely Harrod 22:10
I like that. Yeah, thank you. We need that on a t shirt. fastest way to change the world.
Leslie Greene 22:26
The thing, I didn't talk about it, but I love starting businesses, right?
Kaely Harrod 22:32
That's a separate podcast episode. I recently talked about hybrid classes. And so I mentioned that like the way that you all I mean, I had a basic understanding of how the class was run, you know. And so the way that it is run is really interesting to me as a person who's created a self-paced class, because I think that is kind of a lovely, like, I mean, hybrid is the word but a lovely, you know, dual system where you get some face to face time, even if it's virtual, with an actual birth professional, and someone who can help you kind of apply this to yourself and also troubleshoot a little bit and practice, like you're saying, and also you have some of it on your own schedule in time, which makes it doable, especially in like multiple series kind of class, you know, where it's like, I don't necessarily have all five Thursdays free...
Leslie Greene 23:38
I love the hybrid class model, I did try to design my own class, and get it together. Similar model, but I was able to get into the program before I finished that because I have so many other things to work on. And I'm so glad that I was able to get into it. Now. The Evidence Based Birth™ class has always been virtual. So when the pandemic came are mostly virtual, the first two classes are supposed to be in person, but it was very easy to change it into virtual experience. It came with an explosion in enrollments because there weren't many instructors, but also already virtual and it's a very easy transition.
Leslie Greene 24:22
And I am actually a Gen Z, I mean Gen X or excuse me, not a Gen Z or Gen X-er. And I guess until I got into birth work that most of the people we're having babies right now are in a different generation than I am. And let's just be honest, like everything you need to know you can get on the Internet for free, but what an instructor or teacher does is help you to navigate that information and find it faster and easier. And kind of wade through all of that nonsense. And so I love teaching like millennials and Gen Zers, and the way that best Are you guys who are listening, learn, but like here's all the information, you can go through it at your own pace and check it all out. And, and, you know, see what it all is. And then we can meet and we can have discussions about it. You know, when I was in school, like I learned very well from a classic environment classroom, I love having a lecture. And then like taking the multiple choice task at the end. Like, that's how I like learn. Yeah, that's not the way people learn anymore. That's so boring to everyone. Nobody has time to go sit for like eight hours every week, and get instructed in this. So you can really make it work for you. And I think it's really, really amazing. And I'm glad that that's something that you've been looking into. I think it's really I don't know, apt I guess to one, today's learners. Today, people want to learn, and people today are really used to learning online at this point. And it's really almost an insult to have them sit down and listen to you talk for a long time. When it's like, well, here's all the information, you can go through it and navigate it the way you like, here it is presented different ways. So if you need it to be like this or like that, like and you have a different learning style. So it's really very realistic, I think, for the way that we we live in 2022. fast pace. Yeah. Information available, where, and so it's really, really appropriate. Yeah, people who are having babies today?
Kaely Harrod 26:44
Yeah. But one of the things I think is such a drawback to the fact that you can find all sorts of information online, is you also find all sorts of crappy information on
Leslie Greene 26:56
Yes, everybody's authority on the internet.
Kaely Harrod 26:58
That's right.
Kaely Harrod 26:59
Yeah. And so one of the parts of having it kind of curated for you, right, is that you know what to trust about it? The number of times I've had someone say, like, oh, I read about this thing. And I'm like, your hospital doesn't even have that thing, right? Like, but you don't know that you don't have the context for it. You're just like, That sounds lovely. And I'm like, if you show up and labor, thinking, you're gonna get that that is not something your facility even has available to you. Right? That's your whole plan, you know? Yeah. So that's part of it, too, is being able to actually like hone in on like, what's true? What's accurate? And what is realistic? Because if you're going into a scenario of a birth setting, where you're like, Oh, this is my plan to have, like, all of these amenities, and then you're like, Well, have you checked to see if your hospital has those amenities? Because many of them don't, you know,
Leslie Greene 27:50
many of them don't, and most of them are not keen on your birth plan. And your dreams that you've had, and, and there's a lot of going into the hospital trying to make it a home birth experience. And it's just, that's just not going to happen. And it might be a really pretty Hospital in a part of town where the wealthiest people in the world live. I'm not naming any names. Right now. I'm going into that hospital and you are not 22 in perfect health, and spontaneously delivering you're having a C section. Unless..
Kaely Harrod 28:38
and you're like, white in most cases. Right?
Kaely Harrod 28:42
Yeah. Hey, so with the heterosexual relationship, when
Leslie Greene 28:46
they're in a heterosexual relationship, and maybe the doctor might be best friends with your mom, you're probably gonna be having a C section. And if you don't want to have a C section, you must be realistic about going into the setting you know, and there's a lot of romance like you said, and people planning and expectations, and it's really hurtful to go in and not be able to have that experience. But guess what, we want to give you the information in advance. And and that's really where the differences and figuring it out from the internet or working with a specialist like Kaely, who has curated the information and can really tell you like I've visibly been there. And I can tell you what that experience can look like so you can make these kinds of decisions. Realistic and be happy with your experiences.
Kaely Harrod 29:42
Yeah. And a professional like Leslie! I'm not the only one here that can teach you these things.
Leslie Greene 29:53
And that's why we're not in competition like I you know, like, I really wish that this was not something that people had to pay them To get the information, you know, like, our grandmas were born in home with their, you know, everybody was born at home. And it was a community experience. You know, it was never supposed to be alone in a hospital, like a factory setting like that was never laid. Berg was done until very recently. So yeah, you know, yeah, it should, it should be free. And it should be information we all have. But that's not the way that it is right now. So
Kaely Harrod 30:31
yeah, yep.
Leslie Greene 30:33
Yeah, the more of us that have the information, the better. Yeah, you're here.
Kaely Harrod 30:37
Well, we, I keep losing my earring I knew that was gonna happen. We need to wrap up for today so that it stays kind of nice and short. But Leslie, one of the things that I like to put in the shownotes is how people can connect with you. So if you have any particular like classes coming up, or anything that you want to share, I'd love for you to talk about them for a minute. Or I can just put the links in if that's easier.
Leslie Greene 31:06
So I have tons of stuff coming up. So I really am I focusing on education. I would love to be offering education on like, mostly education classes, like in center, but I do have a lot of things on my plate. So the easiest way to get in touch with me right now is on Instagram. @Lesliethedoula.
Kaely Harrod 31:30
Perfect. Okay,
Leslie Greene 31:32
I'm still working on my website. I'm always working on my website. the name of my business is Peridot Births or Peridot, P E. R, I do T births, and you can email me there. I try to be easy to get in touch with. And so maybe I'm not that easy. But I can be reached at (see show notes for email!) But the easiest to remember is @lesliethedoula.
Kaely Harrod 32:05
Okay, awesome. Oh, make sure all the links are in there. Yeah, I'll make sure they're there so people can connect with you. And I have really enjoyed this conversation because you're lovely, and also a wealth of knowledge. Yeah, of course, of course.
Leslie Greene 32:22
I'm in the DC area, specifically in Northern Virginia, but virtually available across the world.
Kaely Harrod 32:30
Yeah. Awesome. I think that is also I mean, I know we're ending but that's another thing that I love about virtual education is it expands the options for folks that are in smaller areas. Where like, we have loads of options And we take that for granted! You know, but yeah, so? Oh, yeah.
Leslie Greene 32:50
Oh, yeah. For sure. Yeah, DC. In the world?
Kaely Harrod 32:57
Yeah. Yeah. Mostly because you and I live here.
Leslie Greene 33:01
No, mostly because, yeah, but we can talk about that another time. Maybe over coffee or margaritas right. Outside the DC area, it's a whole different we definitely live in a little bubble here. A little unique spot? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's extremely.
Kaely Harrod 33:19
Right. Yes, for sure. And lots of options, which is a good thing. So this is not the last of our episodes around childbirth, Ed. We're going to have a few more interviews, a few more types of classes that I do not teach that you can hear from other wonderful people. And then we're going to be moving on to doulas is our next series like how do you hire one need one at cetera, et cetera. And so until the next episode, I wish you well informed consent filled births. These episodes are edited and produced by Kaely. Harrod, as I'm sure you can probably tell, and our amazing music is credited in the shownotes as well. So we look forward to seeing you on the next episode. And in the meantime, have a wonderful and consent filled very
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
If you’ve been around here for a while you’ve heard me talk about Evidence Based Birth™ as a reputable resource for research and data around birth. But you may not know that they also have amazing classes for pregnant families. There is comprehensive Childbirth Ed as well as smaller workshops to fit the needs of families.
Today we are joined by the powerhouse, Leslie Greene who literally has skills in dozens of different specialties and is ALSO a doula, childbirth educator, etc. Her knowledge and experience is vast and I’m super excited for you to hear from her today.
MEET OUR GUEST:
Leslie Greene: Doula, Childbirth Educator
I’m a Birth and Postpartum Doula, Childbirth Educator, Babywearing Consultant, Evidence Based Birth™ Instructor…but also a mom to a rising first grader and we love to spend time with our adopted Shih Tzu and tabby kitten when I’m not working. Oh, and coffee. Always iced coffee!
RESOURCES
CONNECT with Leslie
https://www.instagram.com/lesliethedoula/
Evidence Based Birth Class with Leslie
https://www.ebbwithleslie.com/?fbclid=IwAR0jmkwkZu403yBlZzNRMXlxIbiwcMEQBpwAzu03VJF4Rr8hGAFP8BNT0-w
FREE OXYTOCIN GUIDE:
6 Ways to Increase Oxytocin for Labor Progression
https://www.harroddoulaservices.com/free-guide-6-oxytocin-tips
CONNECT with Kaely on Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/Harroddoula/
This podcast is hosted by the Birth Prep Blueprint - comprehensive Childbirth Education for expectant parents to feel calm, prepared and confident about labor and birth. Podcast listeners (that’s YOU!) get 10% off! Use the link below to get that great deal!
https://thebirthprepblueprint.com/offers/884d5a56-9089-4482-a944-6bb7c26c9b04
If you like this episode, don't forget to share it to your Instagram stories and tag me @harroddoula
Kaely Daily is produced by Kaely Harrod of Harrod Doula Services
It is sponsored by The Birth Prep Blueprint Childbirth Class
Music by Madirfan: Hidden Place on Pixabay
