What Does a Doula Need to Know About Normal Newborn Sleep?
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Kaely Harrod 00:04
Welcome to doula Tips and Tits. This podcast is a place where we answer one question about doula work, both to support you and to help you support your clients. I'm Kaely Harrod. I've been supporting families in this perinatal space since my oldest was born 12 nearly 13 years ago. I am a birth and postpartum doula childbirth educator, La Leche League Leader and a doula coach. I love guiding and supporting doulas as they work out their doula business. It is a tremendous joy to be trusted in this way. Thank you for joining us on this journey. Hello, and welcome back to doula Tips and Tits. I am so excited to continue on this series of talking with other professionals that work with pregnant and postpartum families. I think it's incredibly important to know when and how and who to refer to as a doula because we only have a certain amount of scope. And so this whole month, we're talking to all different kinds of professionals about what you need to know about sending your clients their way and also what you need to know about what they are experts in. So today, we have a dear friend of mine, my colleague and business bestie, as I like to tell people, Kim Hawley, who is a sleep coach, and a peaceful parenting coach, and an ibclc, just all around amazing human being. So Kim, can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Before we dive into our question?
Kim Hawley 01:39
Yeah, and I'm so excited to be here. I always, of course, love doing things with my business bestie. So I am a Holistic sleep coach, and in ibclc, and most of the work that I do is around supporting families with sleep through a holistic and responsive lens. But I have additional training as a peaceful parenting educator, and through the Neufeld Institute in development and attachment.
Kaely Harrod 02:10
Yeah, I love that part of Kim and I's business bestie relationship is that we are both La Leche League Leaders So that's how we originally met. But now we also work together on a parenting membership that is for responsive parents. And we really love that collaboration as well. So Kim is here primarily today to talk about sleep because this is a topic that is woefully lacking in postpartum doula trainings. And so with the short episodes, we can't dig into every single detail anyone should ever know about sleep, but we are going to answer the question together. What does the doula need to know on a basic level about newborn sleep? So Kim, where should we start?
Kim Hawley 03:00
Yeah, I mean, I think before even getting into the sleep, like details, like what is developmentally normal, I think any professional who is not a sleep expert or even who is a sleep expert needs to examine what they bring to sleep, right, like what is their story of sleep and how babies should sleep? What biases do they have? Because Western countries have a very distinct and unique view on sleep that is not very lined up with biology. And from my experience talking with a lot of doulas doula certifications don't do a lot of sleep education. And so I don't think a lot of doulas necessarily have been exposed to how to think through what's biologically normal, what is my own personal view? What is cultural view on sleep? And where are these ideas coming from.
Kaely Harrod 04:01
And this is so important because really, in all of doula work, we have to be able to sort of identify our own biases and get curious about those, right? Like, because so much of parenting, birth, pregnancy, postpartum, like all of these topics that we're talking about, there is nuance in them, right? There's nuance in experience, like people's experience and how it plays out that we don't control. And there's also nuance in what people want to do. And both of those really matter.
Kim Hawley 04:33
Exactly. And I feel like the role of a doula or the role of any professional supporting a new parent should be to help them make informed decisions that are right for their family. So it's not about like, what sleep strategies you feel comfortable sharing with your clients or what sleep strategies they might choose. It's really about helping them be empowered to make decisions based on biological and developmental Facts. Rather than, like, become asleep should sleep shoulds are the sleep rules like all the things that we say that baby should or shouldn't be doing, that have nothing to do with biology or even promoting healthy sleep. And there's so much fear based messaging, when it comes to sleep, including, like, perpetuated by professionals that these parents are coming in contact with. And so as a doula, you're in a really lovely position, not to guide them, but to really say, Hey, this is developmentally normal. And, you know, you can choose to do this, or you can choose to do that, but do it out of what feels right, not out of fear, or guilt or shame. And to really be able to show up and do that you have to look at, you know, if you had kids, what did you do? Where did you get those ideas from? And separate that from what you'd bring in to working with a family just like you would with, you know, birth or lactation or anything else? It was sleep, it's hard, because I don't I feel like a lot of people aren't very clear on where those lines are, what is belief? What's personal decision? What's biology?
Kaely Harrod 06:05
Totally, and, and I think one of the things that undermines the like normal, normal developmental sleep that newborns have is how we talk about good and bad sleep with babies, right? Like, so often I hear people like, oh, I have a good sleeper, I have a bad sleeper. And I'm like, Well, what does that even mean? You know? So I think that we continue to sort of perpetuate that idea that like, sometimes we're doing it right. And sometimes we're doing it wrong, rather than normalize the range, but also normalize the fact that like newborns should be waking up and things like that. So I would love to kind of dive into what are those norms, like on a basic level without you giving us all of your expertise? Of course, what should we know just about like, what is normal in those early weeks?
Kim Hawley 07:00
Yeah, and I, I'd say, on a very basic level, recognizing that a newborn is designed to wake up, right, and that is healthy. And it's protective from SIDS. So it's part of safe sleep, we don't actually want to try to get babies to sleep as long and deep as we possibly can. That's not really safe. But it's also critical from a milk supply perspective, if you have a nursing family, we need that, that stimulation, right, we need that milk removal, and baby needs those feeds. So babies are designed to wake and they are hardwired to stay close. I know that every family isn't going to be able to like fully lean into all the contact, sleep and all the contact all the time. But just knowing that a baby's natural habitat, especially as a newborn is on their parents, chest is in their arms, and is close to them. And that that regulates their physiology, the baby's physiology, and it helps with bonding and, you know, helps, again, bring in a nice milk supply for nursing. And it's not something that we create, right? Because throughout most of human history, a baby that you sat down was a vulnerable baby to a predator to not having their temperature regulated appropriately. And so modern times yes, we know our baby in the bassinet isn't gonna get eaten by a tiger. But biology doesn't change that fast. And so that need to be close is really hardwired in parent and baby.
Kaely Harrod 08:35
I love that example. And I've known you long enough that I hear you, of course, use that frequently, right? Like a baby who sat down was in danger. And it always makes me laugh a little bit, because I have this picture of like, like the Ice Age, you know, just like a tiger is coming to grab your baby, whichever was the case. It's exactly what we're talking about. So yeah, go ahead.
Kim Hawley 09:00
I was gonna say I think another thing is like they don't know, their days from nights, right? That's just something that evolves over the early months as their circadian rhythm evolves. And that's another big piece. So we want to make big differences between the days and the nights to help babies sort them out. And that it's okay to respond. Right, that, that that is our role to help them feel safe and secure and that their needs are going to be met. And that's all the caregivers around that that event that newborns? That's their job right to do that in a in a way that we can do sustainably but you know, in a way that gets their needs met.
Kaely Harrod 09:39
Yeah. Well, and I think one thing so so one thing that I want us to make sure we kind of finish with is talking about this idea that we can somehow mess it up right because you mentioned a minute ago like this is not created right? It's hardwired need to be close and to want to be held and and to be by with your people and by your people, right. And so one of the things along with the good Baby Bad Baby kind of idea of sleep is a parent's choice, and that setting up bad habits. Now, I jump on this all the time, because I'm like, your baby is a week old, they're not manipulating you, right? You're not creating a scenario where they're for the rest of their life, they're not going to sleep. However, I would love to hear your breakdown of like, our parents creating situations in those earliest weeks that are going to make for children that are older that don't know how to sleep on their own, for instance.
Kim Hawley 10:46
Absolutely not, right, there are no bad habits with sleep. And what we do in the early weeks is about creating safety and security, right? Do we want sleep to be a safe and secure place to be that involves responding and helping them feel safe, there is nothing that you can't change. And it's actually easier to ask for more independence, as a baby gets older, you know, an older baby or a toddler, I'm sure there are times developmentally, where a separation anxiety is really high. And it's difficult for a parent to make changes and ask baby, but that's true, you know, regardless, there's not a window of opportunity for change. And I know that's a really big message out there that like if you don't get it by six months, or nine months or a year or whatever arbitrary point that suddenly you're not going to be able to get it. And that's just, it's made up like there's there's no validity to that it's easier to make changes with older babies and toddlers, because they are closer to the change that we're asking them to do. And generally that change isn't something they would prefer to do. It's not something happening organically or we wouldn't need strategies around it. So all the things people say are bad habits, feeding, to sleep, nursing, to sleep, rocking, to sleep, holding, contact, naps, bed sharing, all of those things are healthy, biologically normative behaviors, that really can support sleep, and can always be changed. If they're not working for a parent and baby for whatever reason, whether that's like the parents, like I've just done, or maybe they're not settling baby in the same way. And it's just, you know, functionally not working. We can always, always change those things in gentle and respectful ways.
Kaely Harrod 12:36
Yeah, I love that. I think it's so easy to feel like, as a parent, you could ruin everything. But oftentimes, I'm like, as an adult at 37, I'm still teaching myself new things on a pretty regular basis, right. And so I don't think I have the power to completely ruin sleep for my children at this point, because even as older kiddos older, teenagers and adults, they can build healthier habits. And so that's not what we're talking about. I mean, that's not what we're aiming for. Right. But also, the devastation that we sort of bring into that, like, pressure of getting it right, in the early weeks is not, should not be there and is not true. So
Kim Hawley 13:23
yeah, and there's so much fear based messaging, young asleep world, like so much. And it's their reasons if they're right, like, um, but especially in those newborn, you know, weeks, months, you know, even if it's something you're like, maybe I wouldn't do this forever. Like it is the time to do what works. And what's easiest. And experiment, see what your baby likes. And, you know, as a doula as a professional supporting parents to help them be like, Oh, we can sometimes feed to sleep and sometimes put them in the wrap and wear them for a nap, right and like, show that there are a lot of tools that you can experiment with. And it's lovely when you are helping parents to build a toolbox of different ways that their baby settles really well. And can fall asleep feeling supported. So they don't feel like they they don't have options.
Kaely Harrod 14:18
Yeah, yeah, totally. So one of the one of the purposes for this series in July is for doulas to understand what even is out there in terms of options for their clients, right to be able to refer to folks. So as we were wrapping this up, I would really love for you to share some of the options that you have. I know you have a beautiful coaching program. You also have a like, you know, individual sleep coaching. And so you want to share with the audience, what are some options that parents have when they're working with you?
Kim Hawley 14:53
Yeah, definitely. So I have a blog, first of all, that has lots of free blog posts on it. range of topics. And for you doulas, I have a really, really well cited developmentally normal sleep, by age blog post that can be really great for you to refer to or for your clients. I have a group coaching program that supports families from when they're babies about five months up through when their baby is about 24 months. Which is, I mean, I kind of started thinking about it, Kaylee almost is like dueling them through those like totally, and younger toddler months with sleep through a developmental and attachment focused lens. And so it's really a highly supportive space. I love it. And then I do have one to one packages, when, when that's what folks really need is that, like, all my attention is on them around their schedule, and around their needs, and around their pacing of things, and I will have my own podcast coming out later. Yeah, so I am so excited for that. It's been a it's been a while in the making.
Kaely Harrod 16:08
Yes, I'm also very excited for that. I will make sure that that developmentally normal sleep blog is linked in the show notes. So if you want to go and look at that, I do recommend you add that to your resource list as a doula because that is something that you can really easily send to clients and be like, here's a quick guide, right? And that just even the information that's so easily broken down is super helpful in the postpartum time when our brains are just not able to absorb quite as much as normal. And so being able to refer back to that guide is really, really helpful for parents and I send it to clients all the time. I will also link Kim's Instagram account below so that if you'd like to start following her and hear about when her podcast comes out and connect with her that way, all of her information will be in the show notes. Kim, I so appreciate you taking the time to be on the podcast. I know that the listeners will learn so many amazing things from this episode and I just really appreciate you. Thanks for having me.
Kaely Harrod 17:19
Thanks for joining us for this episode of the doula Tips and Tips podcast. If you learned something today or had an aha moment, we'd love for you to share that on Instagram and tag us at Herat doula, so we can celebrate alongside you. If you found this podcast helpful. We would so appreciate you taking a second to leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast app that helps other doulas find us as we do this work together. This podcast is intended as educational and entertainment it is not medical advice or business advice. Please consult your own medical or legal team for your own needs around
Sleep is a hot topic in the postpartum world, but honestly most doula training is woefully lacking in biological norms for newborns! If we, as doulas are functioning from a place of ignorance if we are recommending sleep strategies that are not supporting of newborn biological norms or, even worse, dangerous for the age we’re working with! Today’s special guest is a sleep coach and my first call and constant referral to my clients.
Kim Hawley has a background in public health and is a genius at gentle sleep strategies. My clients have found that her classes help tremendously in setting realistic expectations as well as her group program being a wonderful ongoing education and support for families.
Quote from the show:
“I think any professional who is not a sleep expert or even who is a sleep expert needs to examine what they bring to sleep, right, like what is their story of sleep and how babies should sleep? What biases do they have? Because Western countries have a very distinct and unique view on sleep that is not very lined up with biology. And from my experience talking with a lot of doulas doula certifications don't do a lot of sleep education. And so I don't think a lot of doulas necessarily have been exposed to how to think through what's biologically normal, what is my own personal view? What is the cultural view on sleep? And where are these ideas coming from.”
OUR GUEST:
Kim Hawley, MA, MPH, IBCLC is a Holistic Sleep Coach, Lactation Consultant, Peaceful Parenting Educator, and the owner of Intuitive Parenting. She helps tired parents bring together developmental knowledge, sleep science, and their intuition to improve family sleep. Her specialty is holistic, responsive sleep support for babies, toddlers, and nursing families. Kim lives in Capitol Hill, Washington DC with her husband, 2 kids, guide dog, and cat. She loves running, listening to audio books, coffee, chocolate, and wine.
CONNECT with Kim:
Website: https://intuitiveparentingdc.com/
Instagram: www.instagram.com/intuitive_parenting_dc
Facebook: www.facebook.com/intuitiveparentingdc
Blog post on developmental sleep norms: https://intuitiveparentingdc.com/blog/2018/7/6/developmentally-appropriate-sleep-expectations-birth-to-age-5
CONNECT with Kaely on TikTok or Instagram
https://www.tiktok.com/@doulacoach
https://www.instagram.com/Harroddoula/
If you like this episode, don't forget to share it to your Instagram stories and tag me @harroddoula
Kaely Daily is produced by Kaely Harrod of Harrod Doula Services
It is sponsored by The Birth Prep Blueprint Childbirth Class
Music by Madirfan: Hidden Place on Pixabay
